chopin etude 1

[ax166]

i'm trying to play chopin's first etude (op10), I know it by heart now, but i don't manage to go very fast because it hurts my right arm!! does anyone know a tip to play it fast without losing his arm?? thanks!

[cziffra]

the goal of this piece, to my understanding anyway, is to make you're wrist work with supple freedom.  it works by concentrating on the lateral movement of the wrist only- your wrist must be parallel to the keys at all times.  it's like a ufo going left to right, with no swaying from side to side, rather than a helicopter, which needs to tilt.  

that's probably the silliest analogy i could have used but it's so hard to describe these things in words.

[Hmoll]

If you experience tension or pain in playing this - or any of more virtuosic etudes by Chopin - you are doing something wrong.

Perhaps you are reaching too much with your fingers.

[eddie92099]

virtuosic etudes

So we are speaking in oxymorons now are we?
Ed

[Hmoll]

So we are speaking in oxymorons now are we?
Ed

Oxymoron - air bag (ie "oxy") named Ed (ie "moron).

[BoliverAllmon]

Oxymoron - air bag (ie "oxy") named Ed (ie "moron).

now that is quite funny.

boliver

[IgnazPaderewski]

Very funny..... Ed should take lessons in witty put downs from you.....

Anyway, on to the topic. HOW DO YOU PLAY THIS PIECE!??? ARGHHH!!! I find this piece completely impossible, it is so ridiculous. I can dash off a couple of the arpeggios fine, but by line two my performance has begun to explore keys that Chopin did not intend and probably could not even imagine. It is soooooooo bloody difficult!

[thracozaag]

Very funny..... Ed should take lessons in witty put downs from you.....

Anyway, on to the topic. HOW DO YOU PLAY THIS PIECE!??? ARGHHH!!! I find this piece completely impossible, it is so ridiculous. I can dash off a couple of the arpeggios fine, but by line two my performance has begun to explore keys that Chopin did not intend and probably could not even imagine. It is soooooooo bloody difficult!

 Use the cartwheel.  

[meiting]

it's a rollercoaster ride dude.

[zoolander]

It is no doubt that the 10-1 is hard. It is common knowledge that many great pianists consider it the hardest etude of them all. Ashkenazy rehearsed this etude for 3 years before playing it on concert.
The funny thing though, is that most people, like myself too, don't see the difficulties before practising it for a while. I've tried to practise it several times during the last year, but i've given up every time. I could get it up in speed to about 130 (quarters a min.) without missing too much, but then my hand positioning would look like crap, and it would be exhausting as hell towards the end, so I gave it all up. I've still not discovered the proper way of practising this one.
As mentioned above the wrist shall only move parallell with the keyboard and not wobble at all. Your arm must follow the moves of your hand. I think a important thing is to make sure your thumb always takes the shortest way between the keys, once it has played, it shall at once seek for the next position. (damn its hard to try explain something you don't know fully in a foreign language:))

[e60m5]

If you experience any pain at all playing this piece, you MUST stop before you suffer an injury.

Return to it later.

[DAwud7]

I just started working on this piece getting it up too speed perfectly could be hard i imagine. I just focus on the finger that plays after my thumb and dont sway my wrist at all and the parts of it i have memorized i can play up too speed maybe even faster without missing notes.

[eddie92099]

Oxymoron - air bag (ie "oxy") named Ed (ie "moron).

Was it absolutely necessary to lower the tone? I don't personally insult you ,
Ed

[Hmoll]

Was it absolutely necessary to lower the tone? I don't personally insult you ,
Ed

Ed,
Looks like you didn't get a sense of humor for Christmas.

I was kidding. Don't take yourself so seriously.

Regards,
Hmoll

And yes, the one redeaming feature of your posts is you do not lower yourself to personal attacks/insults.

[chsmike2345]

Rule of thumb (or arm) -
IF IT HURTS, YOU'RE DOING SOMETHING WRONG

[BoliverAllmon]

And yes, the one redeaming feature of your posts is you do not lower yourself to personal attacks/insults.

Depends on your definition of personal attacks/insults.

boliver

[meiting]

Rule of thumb (or arm) -
IF IT HURTS, YOU'RE DOING SOMETHING WRONG

Either that or you just need to build up your muscles. That's what I do.

The only "pain" you really have to be careful with is tendons. Muscle pain is not that big of a deal, as long as you don't overdo it. When an olympic athlete is in training they go through lots of muscle pain. Same with piano. But if you start getting tight, stretch. If you start having tendon pain, stop and get a good massage cuz you don't want tendonitis.

[cziffra]

how do you know if you've got tendonitis?

[Chitch]

Your C major scale has more accidentals then your chromatic.

[Hmoll]

Either that or you just need to build up your muscles. That's what I do.

The only "pain" you really have to be careful with is tendons. Muscle pain is not that big of a deal, as long as you don't overdo it. When an olympic athlete is in training they go through lots of muscle pain. Same with piano. But if you start getting tight, stretch. If you start having tendon pain, stop and get a good massage cuz you don't want tendonitis.

Meiting,
I will defer to your experience, but I find it hard to agree with you for a couple reasons:

1) Piano students often have difficulty differentiating between muscle and tendon pain.

2) One of the objectives of the Chopin etudes is not to build up endurance or muscles, but to learn how to play them in a way that you do not get tired.

I am not trying to be argumentative. What I just said is fundamental to my own approach to playing. Please let me know what you think.

Regards.

[meiting]

1) Piano students often have difficulty differentiating between muscle and tendon pain.

I completely agree with you. However, if you CAN differentiate between the two, then you would know when you're on safe ground - muscle pain is usually not a problem, as long as you're not overusing the muscles.

2) One of the objectives of the Chopin etudes is not to build up endurance or muscles, but to learn how to play them in a way that you do not get tired.

I can only agree partially with you. That is certainly one of the objectives for all pieces, but it does not alway happen. Also, one of the ways to play so that you don't get tired is to build up more muscles or endurance. (or stamina. whatever you want to call it). There is no way to play op. 10 no. 2 and not get tired in the middle, unless you've practiced a lot, and whether you get muscle pain or not the simple fact that you have practiced it means that you have built up endurance. There is not a single person in this world who can pick up this etude and play it, and if there is, then that person already HAS the endurance. Isn't that what practicing is ultimately?

I am not trying to be argumentative. What I just said is fundamental to my own approach to playing. Please let me know what you think.

I am also not trying to be argumentative, because I think we are saying similar things, but in different ways, and I take it slightly further than you do. The simple fact that you practice, and after you practice you can play faster and more accurately (of course that's only one of the effects) means that you are building up endurance and stamina. I'm just trying to point out that if you get muscle pain while you're doing it you don't have to stop IMMEDIATELY, because it's muscle pain. But if you get tendon pains you MUST stop, and massage it, because tendonitis is not something to be played around with

Cziffra, If you have tendonitis, you would have problems (in other words, pain) rotating a joint, whichever joint you have tendonitis in. Things to look out for when practicing: tightness in your lower half of your arms (hold your arms horizontally in playing piano position, and the muscles below your bones is what I'm talking about). Tightness above is usually ok, because of the group of muscles directly related to your fingers. The muscles under is related to your entire hand, and there are several tendons in the middle of it. If you get tightness there, stop immediately and stretch your hand up, pulling the lower tendons straight, and do that for a while. it'll hurt when you stretch but at least you're less likely to get tendonitis that way.

Also, generally it is good to stretch your hands before you play. I stretch mine almost constantly whenever I'm not doing anything else with them. Between fingers, wrist up and down, elbows, arms, etc.

have fun practicing:P

mt

[steinway88]

I play 3 chopin etudes the C major no1 op10, the c minor no12 op10 ''Revolutionary'' and the no2 op10. All 3 have some kind of technique you must workout. The C major works out arpeggiation. The reason why you hand hurt is that if you lift your fingers too high your muscles of your are getting streched out too far. Try to keep your fingers as close as possible to the keys.

[Robert_le_diable]

This etude is, according to many famous pianists as for example Horowitz (who actually stated that it was impossible to perfect it in right tempo), among the hardest etude ever written. One should have that in mind before practising this piece.
So it will take much more time than what you normally need to learn a piece.

It is of course composed as an arpeggio exercise and for developing and stretching the right hand. Also, it is likely a very clever rewrite of Bach's Prelude no.1 from Well-Tempered Klavier I. Chopin must have done this intentionally as a tribute to Bach.

I learnt this piece by starting it off in half tempo and memorize each section perfectly before moving on to next section (it is built up in three sections, bar 1-16, 17-47 and 48-79) and then gradually speed up the piece and adding dynamics and accents.
It is a really good practise even if you do not succeed to make it up in b=176.
There are some bars I find particular difficult as 30, 32 and 42-44.

After learning this piece, I see it as you have two choices when performing it. Either you make it perfect and slower or fast with minor errors, though you must always set the last key in each arpeggio when you go up and first when you go down and keep the speed approximately constant. Otherwise it will sound very crappy (left hand must be perfect of course).
And approach it with the attitude that you will likely never really be able to finish it but have to work on it constantly.

I enjoy to play it very much and will likely never ever get bored with it. Much more fun to use as an exercise rather than normal arpeggio exercises. I play it daily 3-6 times.

[cziffra]

and for fun, transpose it into c sharp!

[thracozaag]

and for fun, transpose it into c sharp!

 Don't give Mei-Ting any more ideas (he can play 10 #2 in Bb minor :-/)
 Godowsky has a version for the left of 10 #1 in Db major...quite beautiful.

[Robert_le_diable]

and for fun, transpose it into c sharp!

Interesting!

[gosch]

Has anybody looked into the "Cortot-edition" of Chopin's etudes ?
I wonder if Cortot can give any special advice for practising, particularly the Op 10 No 1.

Gosch

[meiting]

and for fun, transpose it into c sharp!

Yeah. it's fun. See if you can achieve the same accuracy level with that also.

Or Op. 10 no. 5 in G major. That's a good one.

The best is still op. 10 no. 2 in B-flat minor

[gosch]

Yeah. it's fun. See if you can achieve the same accuracy level with that also.

Or Op. 10 no. 5 in G major. That's a good one.

The best is still op. 10 no. 2 in B-flat minor

So you're saying the Cortot-edition gives good advice for practising ?
How detailed are these explanations of Mr. Cortot ?

[robert_henry]

the goal of this piece, to my understanding anyway, is to make you're wrist work with supple freedom.  

I agree.

 it works by concentrating on the lateral movement of the wrist only- your wrist must be parallel to the keys at all times.  

I disagree.  Most of the time making a circle with one's wrist  includes the lateral as well as the horizontal, and I would count this as one of those times.  What are your reasons for exluding the horizontal, particularly on the turn arounds at the top?  

Robert Henry

[allchopin]

Or Op. 10 no. 5 in G major. That's a good one.
The best is still op. 10 no. 2 in B-flat minor

That's wild- how long did it take you to figure it out and re-memorize these pieces?  Sounds like a lot of work!  

Mei-Ting:  How much harder do is the Godowsky #1 is than the Chop #1?  

[meiting]

op. 10 no. 1 and 5 didn't take that long, but they are harder. No. 2 isn't much harder, but requires a whole new fingering:)

The Godowsky is not really harder, but different. It's slower, but more massive.

[thracozaag]

"The first etude alone is a veritable obstacle course for the fingers, and the fact that it is written in C major makes it no easier, by Chopin's own theory.  Walter Gieseking admitted that at one time he spent six hours a day practising this one piece"

--Dieter Hildebrandt, Piano Forte: A Social History of the Piano.

[eddie92099]

What about the ex-Royal College of Music professor who decided to turn the piece upside down?
Ed