Octaves and Fast Octaves

[zhiliang]

I believe that this has been asked many times already but are there any ways or exercises which can help us to overcome the problems of playing fast octaves and also chords.

I do experience a stiffness in my forearms when it comes to the octaves and repeated chords in Rachmaninoff's Prelude Op.23 No. 5. And also the harsh percussive sounds when it comes to chordal and octaves playing.

Is there any technique which will help?

Regards,
Zhiliang

[cziffra]

i've been playing chopin's butterfly etude op 25 no 9 for about a year, and the difference in octave-playing-ability between my right and left hand is almost embarrasing- so for the right hand, that piece is exactly what you need.

for the left i'm not so sure.

[zhiliang]

So besides playing that Chopin Etude, how do we approach playing it in the first place? How should the movement be like? And what are the different ways where we can use different touches for octaves?

Zhiliang

[IgnazPaderewski]

Keep everything that is not directly involved in playing the octave still, but loose. then just play.............. try and make outer notes legato (4-5-4-5 etc) and play the thumb lighter (less tiring). KEEP SHOULDERS AND FOREARMS RELAXED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[chopiabin]

Take a deep breath before you start and don't let the fact that there are octaves intimidate you. You could also start playing regular and chromatic scales in octaves and double octaves (fun!).

[bitus]

As far as the butterfly etude goes, there's only one thing you have to keep in mind: stay above the keys! Practice it slowly anticipating the next note, and as soon as you hit one chord, jump to the next one, even if you arive there faster than needed. This helps your precision.
The Bitus.

[ted]

I use a variety of octave techniques depending on the effect required. Generally speaking, the faster, lighter and closer together they are, the more I use my third and fourth fingers on the blacks with my fifth on the whites, and the more I use fingers and wrists. The slower, heavier and further apart they are, the more I use fifth fingers and the more I use arm and shoulder.

But not always. In stride and ragtime basses I use whichever finger seems appropriate at the moment for the lower note. In that rapid, up and down burst of alternating octaves in Mazeppa, for example, I use the fifths all the time because I can't seem to control it with anything else without tangling my hands. Then again, I do employ third and fourth fingers for the other octave passages in the same piece.

Aside from these general observations I find it difficult to make rules about octaves.

[rohansahai]

Hey,
I'm working on the sixth rhapsody by liszt and believe me, the octave passages in it have really taken the air out of me! My little finger in the right hand starts paining if I practice it a little more than usual. Also, it becomes extremely difficult to play the octaves loud, presto and still be relaxed! Any suggestions (for the sixth rhap.)?

[Beethoven87]

My only advice to add to all this is simply to be completely relaxed.  Your wrists and forarms can move faster than you think they can, you just need to get the notes.  Always keep the wrists completely relaxed!

[bitus]

do you play octaves using a lot your wrist? or do you just play them using your whole arm, as a big movement? When i play both hands in parallel, the later works quite well,
The Bitus

[zhiliang]

But how is the general movement when playing fast octaves is like? Do we play it form the forearm, or the wrist? Is it like a bouncing movement?

Regards,

Zhiliang

[bitus]

hahaha zhiliang you should read at least the last reply before you post yours.
The Bitus

[robert_henry]

Here are my ideas for playing octaves:

IDEA THAT DOESN"T SUCK #1:

1.  Approach everything (including octaves) with a neutral hand and mechanism.  
2.  Play the note.  
3.  Recover with a neutral hand and mechanism.

Repeat.

Being in a state of relaxation at all times is key...EXCEPT for that split second when we actually activate the note.  At that moment, the ends of our fingers and the structure of our hands firms up.  I talk about this more next...

IDEA THAT DOESN"T SUCK #2:

As I've stated many times on this forum, I believe in playing with weight; our muscles should be used to aim the weight to the correct key.

However, weight alone is not enough.  

Think "weight with structure."  When we drop our hands on the key, the bridge of our hand (essentially our palms) must be firm enough to support the weight.  It must not collapse.  If it collapses, then we have just wasted energy and that will tire you out.  I've have actually found that the firmer the bridge of my hand, the less tired I get when playing octaves.  

IDEA THAT DOESN"T SUCK #3:

The idea of a balanced hand.  This is such a simple idea, yet it fixes SO many problems, and not just octaves.

Imagine you are asked to play a C and a G.  Now, look at the keys.  What note is in the middle of those two pitches?  "E" should be your answer.  So, instead of thinking "I will play two notes with two fingers", think "I will balance my hand and drop my weight over the center of the pitches, which is the general area around "E".  

Another example:  How about an octave from C to C.  What is the center point between those two notes?  Somewhere around F and F#.  So drop your weight there.

What about C and E?  Balance your hand around D.

What about Ab and F?  Balance your hand generally around C and C#.

So, instead of thinking two notes, think one drop.  Think one drop aimed properly.  If you had octaves in both hands (like the CHopin etude), think two drops instead of four notes.

Does this work for funky fingerings?  Yes.

Example:  How about finger 3 on C#/finger 5 on G.  Look at the two notes.  Where would the center of those pitches be?  Somewhere around E.  Drop your weight there.

This works for chords, octaves, and astoundingly confident pp chord playing.  It takes the "hope" out of playing soft chords, and replaces it with a system that is reliable.

IDEA THAT DOESN"T SUCK #4:

Keep your torso, neck, and head stationary.  Think "Stationary Torso."  If you are flopping around with equal and opposite reactions to every arm thrust, then you are again wasting energy.  Imagine a guy holding a jackhammer.  He is keeping his body firm.  What would happen if he relaxed his torso?  The jackhammer would bounce out of control.  A guy shooting a machine gun is another useful analogy.

IDEA THAT DOESN"T SUCK #5:

I believe in higher wrists for bravura octaves.  

IDEA THAT DOESN"T SUCK #6:

Much emphasis is placed on wrist octaves, but there are also arm octaves.  These involve stiffening the wrist and using your bigger levers.  Practice playing scales and switching techniques from wrist to arm and back again WITHIN the same scale.
-----------------------------------------------

To sum up, think:

Firm bridge and active fingertips
Weight with structure
Loose elbows
Balanced hands
Stationary torso
Higher wrist

Of course, there is a lot more to octaves.  Start with these ideas.


Robert Henry

[bernhard]

Brilliant ideas.

Brilliant writing.

Thank you!

[cziffra]

cziffra's playing of the hungarian rhapsody no 6 is without equal.  when i got the video i noted that to increase speed he'd play

5 4 5 4
1 1 1 1

i'm not sure what he did for the non-repeated notes, it's hard to see because it's simply too fast!

[anda]

Any specific advice for people with small hands?  Most of my 9 year old students have larger hands than mine!  I kid you not  

i understand that quite well... i have an awfully small hand too. try practicing all scales in octaves with both hands going parallel and contrary. keep the octave position in the hand firmly, use the first note (the attack) to get an impulse and use your arm to carry the hand up and down, and the wrist only for changing white/black keys. start by playing two octaves in one move very fast, once you can do that try three, then four, and so on.

also, the wrist bouncing up and down is useful, but only in moderate tempos - in fast tempos, this extra-move consumes time and energy.

[bitus]

try broken octaves before you do the actual octaves, and stretch. I used to be able to play a tenth, so i started to stretch, and now i can easily play 11th sometimes even a 12.
The Bitus.