Starting Piano at Age 19, which path?

[goalevan]

Hey all

I found this forums yesterday and I've got to say its been very interesting and helpful.

I've just recently started the piano about 4 months ago at age 19, because of a sudden incredible interest in classical music and especially piano music, which doesn't seem to be declining. Over the last four months I've been researching online, the first few days that I started, I wasn't even sure if it would be a permanent thing but I learned all the basics on this site called pianonanny.com. That was good and it set me up the basics to read music and experiment on the piano myself. Ever since then I've had piano running through the veins. I'm currently on a college campus so every day or every other day I go to the music building and play on the practice pianos for up to 6 hours at a time. I keep liking the piano more and more. This semester I've been taking a beginners piano course at my college that meets 3 times a week, and that has helped me keep my self doing the right things and learning a little more advanced things here and there.
As for my skill level, I can play some cool songs, mostly parts of harder songs. I can play all of Fur Elise, and parts of Chopin Waltz op 64 no 2 for example. I tend to like to try to memorize the notes on harder songs so that I can play what sounds cool. I realize that I should probably start forming an organized plan for practicing the piano efficiently. I guess I could say my goal with the piano is to have a colorful and fun repertoire that I can enjoy playing as much as I've enjoyed the piano these past 4 or so months.

So far I've hit two main problems:

I've been looking through various online resources, and books in my campus library on technique and different outlooks on learning the piano. So far I've read into some interesting books in the library and Changs book online at http://members.aol.com/Mccc8888/chapter1.htm, but I'm not sure which would be a good place for me to continue my work with the piano. My beginners class at the university used the "Piano Adventures for the Older Begginer" series by Randall and Nancy Faber, but the course will only take me so far, and it's the only non-music major piano course that the university offers.
I suppose I could try to continue their series to the end, that's another option.
So are there any suggestions on a good path for me to take in my current situation?

My second problem is this: SIGHT READING. Ever since I've started it, I've been catching on slowly. I'm thinking it could be related to learning a foreign language. But I can understand that there is a lot of practice that should go into it. I can associate every note on the staff to the key easily, but feeling around on the keyboard I often hit the wrong notes even on easier songs, or mistake an F for a G, or a D for a B or have to think about it for a second. I realize if I want to advance to where I want to be, I need to train my sight reading intensely.
Any suggestions on a way I can work to improve my sight reading skills?

Thanks

[bernhard]

Since you are an adult student I would suggest that you make a long term plan of which pieces (no matter how difficult) you would like to be playing, in say, 5 years time. Then take this list to your teacher and ask him/her to tailor a course of instruction that will lead you both musically and technically to achieve that goal.

For sight reading advice, have a look on these threads in the forum, where a lot of very helpful information has been posted:

http://www.pianoforum.net/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=stud;action=display;num=1073131731

http://www.pianoforum.net/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=teac;action=display;num=1069725044

http://www.pianoforum.net/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=stud;action=display;num=1071914342

http://www.pianoforum.net/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=teac;action=display;num=1057746417

http://www.pianoforum.net/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=teac;action=display;num=1045438109

http://www.pianoforum.net/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=stud;action=display;num=1061861871

Best wishes,  
Bernhard.

[goalevan]

Right now I don't have a personal instructor, I'm just in a university course that ends in about a month.

[Hmoll]

Since you are an adult student I would suggest that you make a long term plan of which pieces (no matter how difficult) you would like to be playing, in say, 5 years time. Then take this list to your teacher and ask him/her to tailor a course of instruction that will lead you both musically and technically to achieve that goal.

That's not bad advice. The only thing I might add is the more you learn about classical music, and listen to music you have not heard before, the more your taste may change.  So, while your 5 yr. plan might be Mephisto Waltz, Moonlight Sonata, Rach. Prelude op_ #_,  or other greatest hits, in 5 yrs time you might have listened to a lot of different music, and might want to play, for example, the Vine sonata, some Messiaen,  lesser played Haydn, etc.

Be prepared to have your 5 yr. list change, and be flexible.

Good luck

[goalevan]

say I decided not to get a teacher. where would you refer me? A book, a method series, website.. etc.

[rlefebvr]

I once asked one of my teachers how he could read so fast.
He was simply amazing at this.
He said I don't read. I just visualize it.
He said I read the base note and then go space space no space.
Or if you will Base note, jump one note, jump one note, no jump.
When I am able to do this I get great results.
I have also found the best readers know their Chords very very very well and can simply see the chords by the notes laid out.
So instead of reading 3 to 4 notes, they simply see C7 and play it. This I expect takes lots of time however.

[Bob]

Goaleven, you really might want to reconsider getting a teacher.  Congratulations on the fast progress.  A teacher could really help focus your efforts.  If you're on campus, you might find a music education major that is less expensive and still has an idea of what they're doing.

I haven't scoured the internet lately for piano teaching
sites, but I haven't been impressed in the past.

From what I've seen, the world of "individual" piano playing is somewhat different than the "class" piano track.  

Esp. if you're not a music major and haven't studied in the past, there is so much to deal with in a music, a teacher would really help you sort it out.  I have heard of people taking lessons once a month rather than weekly due to time and money concerns.

Bob

[goalevan]

Bernhard I found this post useful as well:

http://www.pianoforum.net/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=teac;action=display;num=1081187434

The way I learned the notes wasn't by memorizing the EGBDFACE, it was more of memorizing where each individual note lies on the staff... Maybe that's why I'm making slow progress. Or maybe I'm underestimating the amount of time it takes to learn something like this. Might just scrap what I have and start the line-space concept tomorrow.

I downloaded a program today to test note recognition and I got about 92% of notes right with about 1.8-2 second reaction time (time from when note appeared and when I clicked the button for which note it was) from C below the bass clef to the C above treble clef. Is this even a useful way to practice when there's not a piano available at the moment?

[rlefebvr]

Bernhard I found this post useful as well:

I downloaded a program today to test note recognition and I got about 92% of notes right with about 1.8-2 second reaction time

Is this program freeware and if so, do you have a link. That would be great for nieces.

[Antnee]

Here's a similar website:
http://www.practicespot.com/sightreading.phtml?t=79
--Hope it works...Happy Practicing!

[goalevan]

the sight reading program has a free trial at this site: http://www.noteablesoftware.us/

[bernhard]

The way I learned the notes wasn't by memorizing the EGBDFACE, it was more of memorizing where each individual note lies on the staff... Maybe that's why I'm making slow progress. Or maybe I'm underestimating the amount of time it takes to learn something like this. Might just scrap what I have and start the line-space concept tomorrow.

It is perfectly all right to relate the symbols in the score directly to the keys on the piano. In fact this may speed up the sight-reading process, since you eliminate the step of naming the notes. So I don’t  think this is the reason you are making slow progress (more about that in a moment).

There is an advantage to learning the names of the notes, but it has nothing to do with sight-reading. It simply has to do with communication. As a teacher I want to tell the student which key to press and which note to play so it would be very cumbersome to point to the key everytime, or say “the note on the third line of the treble clef”. It also menas that I can be on the other side of the room and just shout: “C sharp!”.

As for slow progress.

Sight reading is a complex activity, and by this I mean that it involves not only recognising the symbols on the score (more about this in a moment), but also playing by ear and memorising.

A competent sight reader will go through a mental process somewhat like this when s/he plays music by sight:

1.      S/he “reads” the first couple of bars. This means that s/he looks at the first two bars and not only “hears” what they should sound like, as s/he “sees” which keys to press. Real experts will even predict which movements /fingerings they will use.

2.      S/he memorises those first two bars.

3.      S/he starts to play the first two bars. As she plays them, s/he will – at the same time – be scanning bars 3 – 4 and repeating the same process described in [1].

4.      Let us go back a moment to [3]. As s/he plays the first two bars, s/he will be looking at the score, so s/he must find the notes by touch. S/he must have an internal system of kinesthesical checking that will tell him/her instantly that she is in the correct place. She will also find the keys  by “ear” since s/he knows what the bars sound like, and s/he is listening to what s/he is playing.

5.      In his/her mind, s/he is always one step ahead: The music s/he is making at the piano is always slightly behind the music in her mind. If it catches up everything falls apart. Concentration must be total.

6.      S/he is not identifying the notes on the scores, but rather taking in whole patterns of notes.

As you can see, there are many separate skills involved here:

1.      The ability to look at the score and “hear” it.

2.      The ability to look at the score and see it as a “map” for the keyboard, so that you translate the information on the score in terms of key location.

3.      The ability to memorise short passages of music (this is short music – you are not memorising forever but just for that moment).

4.      The ability to find the keys by touch.

5.      The ability to play by ear.

6.      The ability to recognise patterns rather than isolated notes.

7.      The ability to do all that in the correct order and seemingly at the same time.

You can learn and practise 1 – 6, but 7 happens by itself as a result of the work you do on 1 – 6.

Now for recognising symbols on the score.

Consider a similar activity: reading aloud a paragraph from a book. The similarities are many:

1.      You start by looking at the first sentence. You actually “hear”it in your mind.

2.      You memorise (short term memory) that first sentence.

3.      As you start saying aloud the first sentence (form memory), your eyes are scanning the next sentence. Competent readers can actually look away from the page to the audience since they can probably memorise a whole paragraph and this gives them time to look at the audience and go back to the book for the next section.

4.      You will hear the sentence in your mind and as you say it you will (unconsciously) check it. But most importantly meaning will be your guide. Try reading aloud a text in a foreign language you do not understand (but that uses a roman alphabet, e.g. Italian or German) and you will se what I mean.

5.      In your mind you will always be one step ahead: the sentence you are reading in the book must be always ahead of the sentence in your mind, the one you are saying aloud. If they ever catch up, your reading will loose its fluency.

6.      You never read letters. You take in whole words, in fact competent readers will take in whole sentences/paragraphs, and super fast readers take in whole pages. You see, it is all pattern recognition. But at this level the pattern you recognise is not that of individual letters anymore, but of individual words/sentences/paragraphs. The reason this is possible is simply because language is very repetitive: the same words keep recurring. Language has a grammar (structure): the sentences are all organised according to a limited (and small) number of rules. Above all language has meaning: it makes sense.

7.      You must do all of the above at the same time and in the correct order.

As you learn how to read as a child, you start with letter recognition, then you will go through the separate skills that make up for the complex task of reading. Although you may practise items 1 – 6, item 7 will happen by itself and there is no way you can go straight to it. It will happen as a result of the work you put in items 1 – 6 – and usually it will happen when you least expect.

Part of the reason children read badly to start with is because they have little vocabulary: a lot of what they read has no meaning for them. So a great help in learning to read is learning as much vocabulary as one can. Of course the best way to do it is by reading widely! So it looks like a vicious circle (you read better by learning new vocabulary, and the way to learn new vocabulary is to read more!) but in fact it is not a vicious circle: it is an ever expanding spiral of skill and knowledge.

Likewise with reading music. A lot of people behave towards music as if they were typing a text in Spanish. They will do it, but they not grasp any of its meaning. Music is analogous to language: it has a vocabulary (pretty limited actually) and a structure (grammar) with a few rules. It also has meaning, but its meaning is not analogous to the meaning in language.

Progress in sight-reading comes not only from mastering the isolate skills that are necessary for the complex task, but also from knowing and understanding music’s vocabulary, grammar, syntax and meaning. The more familiar you are with those, the easier it becomes to take in whole patterns of musical meaning, rather than isolated notes.

So do not worry too much with isolated notes - of course you must know them back to front – but you must go to the next step which is recognising groups of notes as units of musical meaning. For instance, if you can recognise a chromatic scale (they all look the same) over two octaves, the only notes you will need to read are the first and last one. You do not need to read any of the notes in between. This means that instead of reading 24 notes, you will be reading 2.

This is the same principle that rlefebvre mentioned a few posts above in regards to reading chords: you do not read the individual notes, you recognise the whole chord, in the same way that you do not bother with individual letters when reading: you go for the whole word (but of course you must know your letters back to front).

In other words: the study of music theory and harmony is of the utmost importance: it will give you the grammar, syntax and meaning of music.

I hope this helps.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[goalevan]

Thanks a ton for the long response Bernhard. That issue is now 100% clearer. Just ordered a sight reading book from Amazon too. Much appreciated.

[goalevan]

- only thing I don't understand, do you have to have perfect pitch to hear the music in your head just by looking at it?

[bernhard]

- only thing I don't understand, do you have to have perfect pitch to hear the music in your head just by looking at it?

Perfect pitch is not only unnecessary, as it maybe a hindrance in certain circumstances.

Relative pitch on the ohter hand is absolutely essential. Fortunately (and contrary to perfect pitch) it is an easily acquired skill.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[faulty_damper]

Relative pitch is an easily acquired skill.  The benefits relative pitch:  You can play on pianos that are totally out of tune!  I mean C# has been flatted so much that it sounds like C - they've all been knocked down half a step.

Oddly, my cousin can recognize the signature key on an old piano at my grand parents that has never been tuned that was just as I described!  I ended up tuning the C major scale for one octave and it was horrible!  I could play C and C# and they both sounded the same as well as D & D#, F & F#, G & G#!  Cool, huh?  [Didn't finish tuning the entire piano because it was too noisy].

[arigatuso]

Get this book

"Mastering piano technique" by seymour fink and GET THE VIDEO too!. They are very good. But get a TEACHER THAT KNOWS ABOUT THIS STUFF too (a good teacher). The video and the book will help a  lot but I you dont get a teacher it will take much more time (MUCH MORE)

Hope it helps,
Ale.

[MikeLauwrie]

I would definately recomend getting a teacher because a video or book won't give you feedback on your playing, it can't see what you are doing.

Make sure that you get a teacher who is going to be suitable though. Explain what you want to do and ask them HOW they teach.

Good Luck