Finishing a piece !

[steven]

Hello,

I play piano for several years now. I play most Chopin Etudes, Lizt, etc... My biggest problem is I never get to the final speed and solid playing. I play all the notes with correct fingers, even at goed speed but I seems something is keeping me from crossing the "imaginary" barriere (or something). I study like this:
First I read the score several times. I start with right hand in small sections (like a page most of the time). Then after like several times whem i feel it's easy I start with left hand and do the same. Very early I do hands together. From then on I slow down en lift fingers high and play VERY slow and keep always my ears concentrated to get a good tone, for each note. (Like horror for my girlfriend). I sometime need 10 minutes to get a Chopin Etude played ones !! (stupid ?). When I preform I just play and forget al the big movements, tones, slow,... I seems it fall apart. But there's then to point whem my problem comes up. It seems I never get that one thing more that keep me away from that professional souding playing. Help !
My teacher tells me to go on with slow practise and big movements of the fingers. I somethimes play one note in 1 second.

[monk]

The barriere comes from the big finger movements.

It's a superstition that for developing technique, one has to make big movements in slow practice.

Slow practice, yes; but with as much key contact as possible. With just the minimal amount of movement that is necessary. Otherwise you are just wasting energy.

And if you lift the fingers high and "strike from above", you can't get a really good tone. It will be hard.

Other point is that you can't practice very slow all the time and then suddenly try to play up tempo! That simply doesn't work out! You have to build the tempo gradually. Always play the fastest tempo in which you can hear all notes clearly and in which you can control all the details. Not too fast, but also not too slow, that would be time wasting.

Best Wishes,
Monk

[steven]

Thanks Monk,

I'm trying right now !

Steven

[steven]

I'f been practicing all day now speeding up a bit. The first think that I've noticed is more musical feeling of the thing I study.  You get a more deeper view in the structure. Because I played extremely slow you can't get a total picture of how the piece goes.

[monk]

Very good, Steven!

If you practice too slowly, then in fact you don't make music but just individual notes.

But music is the connection between sounds, the tension between notes; the feeling that NOW is the right moment to play a new note.

Let the music, the concrete sound, dictate how you play on (when, how loud and so on) - and not your mind which has concepts. Concepts are good before playing, as mental preparation; but while playing, there has only to be listening and feeling.

And be aware of any tensions in the body; always breathe freely (DON'T breathe "with" the music!). Fast playing is only possible if the player is supple, free and relaxed. (Perhaps sometimes it is also possible when the player is cramped, but it will sound bad, and the player will have endurance problems.)

Best Wishes,
Monk

[steven]

You read already about the topic of the 20 minutes methode (Bernhard) ?
If so I have a question...

Take for instance you start learning Chopin Etude Opus 10 N° 2. You do 7 times, lets us say measue 1 to 6. Then you decides to go on for 20 minutes. Well I did. But what is the speed that I have to be at at this point ? I'm in the, what Bernhard says "the learing step". Sould it be as fast as performing speed ? Or just an easy speed. This is never mentioned before.
I can read pretty well so for me I get it pretty smooth very soon. But not at performing speed.

[monk]

Measure 1 to 6???

Sorry, but that's unmusical practicing! If practicing short segments, one should always take musical "sentences" or "chapters" of the piece.

Very clearly in op. 10 No.2 the first section is 4 bars long.

As I said before, the speed should always be the fastest speed you can play comfortably and musically. Playing faster is bullshit because then you try to pretend to yourself that you are already at a point where in fact you aren't.

Rome wasn't built in 1 day! And it's possible to play real music at speeds lower than M.M.=144, forget that metronome marking sh*t. Some of Chopin's metronome markings are wrong, anyway (e.g. in his Mazurkas - perhaps his metronome was defect, or he was a funny guy who wanted to tease fellow pianists :-)).

Best Wishes,
Monk

[Spatula]

I use metronome for hard to nail down rhythmic pieces like the Fan Imp.  I'd have to say the metronome was my saving grace to make the piece not sound mechanical and fake sounding.

[steven]

Sorry I mean 1 to 4. Measure 5 and 6 are just the same as 1 and 2
right you are!

and what the speed concerns, I listen to many at Pollini's etudes...

[monk]

Spatula, I didn't dismiss the metronome as a tool!

I just wrote that you should take written metronome markings not too religiously.

And Steven, I have the impression that you want to be at the destination, but don't want to go the way. This cramps body and mind and hinders learning. So forget about Pollini for the moment and listen to Steven and his piano.

Best Wishes,
Monk

[steven]

Monk, Your reply is totally correct !
about the destination and the way to...it's good for me to keep that in mind.
thanks...

[mound]

Measure 1 to 6???

Sorry, but that's unmusical practicing! If practicing short segments, one should always take musical "sentences" or "chapters" of the piece.

I'm not sure that's entirely correct, not in the context of the methods Bernhard has proposed. If you can't do an entire musical phrase correctly 7 times in a row, the chunk is too big for you to continue practicing for 20 minutes. Cut the chunk size in half, yes, even if this cuts the musical phrase in half. If you can perform that half correctly 7 times in a row, continue practicing it for up to 20 minutes. If not, cut it in half again and repeat.  Even if this ends up taking you down to only 2 notes.  Then of course follow his instructions for repeating that exact size session with the exact steps, the next day etc..  Yes it's important to do musical practicing as soon as possible, but the psychology behind the 7 rule is sound, and if you can't do it, then you have to shorten it. Work on musicality as soon as the passage you can complete is long enough to call for it. Refer to this quote:

At the same time I do not really like to divorce technique from musicality because I believe they are both two sides of the same coin. So although superficially the methods of practice I use and suggest people to try, would seem to address mostly technique, I actually strongly pressure my students to start working on musicality as soon as the passage they are working on is large enough to allow it – that is, I do not believe that you should learn all the right notes at the right time and only then start working on musicality – quite the contrary, from the very beginning we should have a musical concept that guides one’s practice. We spend a lot of time working on the score, listening to CDs of several pianists and getting thoroughly acquainted with the piece before practising it, in short, I believe in delaying the actual practice at the piano until you have some sort of musical concept (even though you may change it later).

-Paul

[steven]

Thanks mound,

And what about the speed ?
At what speed you have to be after the 20 minutes ?

[super_ardua]

You must be comfortable with the phrase and close to the normal speed

[steven]

Thanks,

and if not the speed then just relearn the next day  until you get the speed right ?
And then move on the the next part witch you can do 7 times ?

help

[mound]

Thanks mound,

And what about the speed ?
At what speed you have to be after the 20 minutes ?

I'm not exactly sure. Myself, I am working towards session sizes that will allow me to reach desired speed. That could be debated. A part of me awaits input from Bernhard on that.. See the post I just added to the students forum "pauls plan to try it himself" - I talked to that, how I've determined for myself that ability to reach speed is a determining factor in chunk size.. but I can't say that is right for you, not yet at least.

-Paul

[steven]

Example;

Now i just finished Beethoven Sonate Opus 49 N° 2. I play the HS at performing speed. Not by memory but most of it i do. (i took me about 2 sessions of 10 minutes each)
I go on now HS for the next pages ?
Is Bernhard also telling, first HS by memory and then HT ?
I just don't know "when" you begin HT ?

I used to learn very fast HT. I pieces like this I used to "start" HT.
Sometimes sight reading is an advantage sometimes not....

steven
-Paul

[steven]

Example;

Now i just finished Beethoven Sonate Opus 49 N° 2. I play the HS at performing speed. Not by memory but most of it i do. (i took me about 2 sessions of 10 minutes each)
I go on now HS for the next pages ?
Is Bernhard also telling, first HS by memory and then HT ?
I just don't know "when" you begin HT ?

I used to learn very fast HT. I pieces like this I used to "start" HT.
Sometimes sight reading is an advantage sometimes not....

steven
-Paul

I mean page 1 (not the whole piece!)

[Bob]

Steven,

Could it be that you just don't have the technique to play the piece up to speed?  That your fingers just don't move that fast (yet).  Maybe you need to work on things that build up your technique.  If you have a piece that's supposed to be performed at 120 bpm and you can only play 110 bpm, then you won't really be able to play the piece until your physically able to play at 120 bpm (or more).  If that's the case, then it will just take time, pushing your technique and giving it time to heal up and then pushing again,  many months (if not years) depending on how fast you want to go.

[bernhard]

Example;

Now i just finished Beethoven Sonate Opus 49 N° 2. I play the HS at performing speed. Not by memory but most of it i do. (i took me about 2 sessions of 10 minutes each)
I go on now HS for the next pages ?
Is Bernhard also telling, first HS by memory and then HT ?
I just don't know "when" you begin HT ?

I used to learn very fast HT. I pieces like this I used to "start" HT.
Sometimes sight reading is an advantage sometimes not....

steven
-Paul

Ok.

1.   Do not worry too much about speed: this sonata is still effective at a slow speed.

2.   To try to bring a full page to speed is too large a chunk. We will go into that in a moment.

3.   If you want HT = 120, aim for HS = 156 – 180.

4.   The most important requirement in the first movement is not so much speed but a sharp distinction between the triplets and the quavers. Don’t let your pursuit of speed blur this rhythm distinction.

5.   When you achieve HS perfectly at 156 – 180, you will probably be able to do HT = 120 straight away.

Now for speed practice.

1.   Start with the first bar, the 2 triplets in the RH. Work on just those seven notes (add the first note of bar 2). Start by playing the first four notes together as a chord (D-G-B-D), and then the next four notes (D-C-A-G) – notice that I am overlapping the D. You are now going to switch between these two chords for a couple of minutes. This means hundreds of repetitions. Do not worry about speed: it will come naturally as a consequence of the facility you will develop from sheer repetition. Instead investigate movement patterns that will make this switching between chords as easy and comfortable as possible. As soon as your hand starts to feel tired switch hands.

2.   For the LH, go straight to bar 15, where the triplet pattern starts again. You see, only bars 1 and 5 (RH) really need speed work – they are triplets – all the other bars are pretty slow in comparison. So there is really no need to do speed work on any of the bars that do not have triplets – great time saving device! So, alternate between the first triplet of bar 15 (D-F#-A) and the first triplet of Bar 16 (D-G-B) playing both as chords (each triplet is repeated four times – but why repeat them? The real problem is switching form one to the other, so just alternate between the two of them – later on you can put back the repeats without having to practise them). Another minute or two, and the LH is tired. So go back to the RH.

3.   Now instead of playing the triplets of bar 1 as two separate chords, “wiggle” your hand and arpeggiate the chords, so that you “break the chord” into separate, amazingly fast separate notes. There is a specific movement involved here that is very easy to demonstrate, but very difficult to describe, so you will have to figure it out. The important thing is that this is not about the fingers. Try to play these notes by lifiting your fingers high and keeping your hand quiet and you will never be able to do it. Instead, do not move your fingers instead let the arm/forearm position and move them. The movement is like you are “rolling your hand” form side to side, and keeping the fingers relaxed except at the moment where they must press a key, in which case you “brace” the fingers” and let the weight of the arm and the rolling motion of the hand press the keys. Do not use the fingers to press the keys Use the arm. This is the whole secret. But you have to figure it out. I cannot really describe it. Ask someone who is knowledgeable to demonstrate it for you. At this point your speed should totally amazing and really unnecessary. So slow down but keep the same movement pattern. Keep slowing down until you get to your target area of 156 – 180. You don’t really need a metronome – except perhaps on the first trials to get your bearings.

4.   Now move to the LH (bars 15 – 16) and do the same thing.

5.   If your RH is good and mastered, move to the RH of bars 15 16. In fact, work this way on the section from bar 15 – 21. There is a lot of repetition, so do not play all the chords/broken chords, just the different ones On the LH this means only two chords. On the RH you will have four cords/broken chords. As soon as you can do those, put them together and play the whole of bars 15 – 21 HS at the target speed (or faster – you will be able to do it if you use the rolling movement). You do not need to wait years to get speed! It is all a matter of figuring out the movement that will allow you to do it easily. That is the correct movement. It should take seconds if someone shows you, and a bit more time if you have to figure it out by yourself.

6.   As soon as you can do bars 15 – 21 HS, join hands by using dropping notes. Start with the LH and drop the RH triplets one at a time, Then invert by playing the RH and dropping the LH triplets one at a time. Go for your target speed straight away (120). Trust me, you will be able to do it, and you will feel so exhilarated that you will make a lot of mistakes out of sheer excitement.

7.   That is it for the first page! Now simply join these two ultra fast triplet sections to the slower quaver sections and you will have the whole page.

8.   Proceed like that through the rest of the movement – isolating the triplet bars and working on them by using the chord trick and using it only on the different triplets.

9.   Notice that some of the scale passages will require unorthodox fingering. And remember to overlap sections or you will inbuild hesitations.

I hope this helps.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[Shalanna]

That was really good advice.

I assume you aren't having any trouble with the "Tempo di Menuetto" mvt of Op 49 #2.  It's pretty played slowly.  I always want to slow down on the "waterfall" part where you play the descending three notes in the RH and the arpeggiated triad in the LH.  It's got to be fast because I take the tempo medium from the opening, but slowed down that sounds like a waterfall of chimes!

[sznitzeln]

I have read Bernhards method and I think he is a great thinker, and he has inspired me...

I think many people read Bernhards method, and follow his advice too carefully...
Bernhard often says that you have to try things for yourself and think for yourself...
As I understand it he doesnt want us to follow everything he says without checking if the methods are compatible with our own logic.
It doesnt have to be 20 minutes, it can be 30, or 10... it doesnt have to be 7 times... it can be 12...
After 20 minutes, will you have performance tempo? Of course it depends on the piece... Can a beginner learn to drill fast in a session? No it takes time as Bob says... some problems take a lot of time to come up with a solution and to evolve physically or mentally..

I have to disagree with you on one point Bernhard
I dont think you should practice HS 30-50% more rapidly...
I dont think anyone would play chopin 10/4 at 264 HS
And I dont think richter practiced it at 315 ....
These speeds are absolutely insane.

I think you should only practice HS when it feels right... and most often that is in polyphonic or extra difficult bars...

[bernhard]

I have read Bernhards method and I think he is a great thinker, and he has inspired me...

I think many people read Bernhards method, and follow his advice too carefully...
Bernhard often says that you have to try things for yourself and think for yourself...
As I understand it he doesnt want us to follow everything he says without checking if the methods are compatible with our own logic.
It doesnt have to be 20 minutes, it can be 30, or 10... it doesnt have to be 7 times... it can be 12...
After 20 minutes, will you have performance tempo? Of course it depends on the piece... Can a beginner learn to drill fast in a session? No it takes time as Bob says... some problems take a lot of time to come up with a solution and to evolve physically or mentally..

This is very correct. I am not putting forward a "method" (at leas not yet... ). It is more like a set of principles that have to be investigated and adapted to each person's idiossincracies. Try it out, keep what works, discard what does not. And sometimes go back to something you discarded, you may understand it better now and derive some benefit from it.

I have to disagree with you on one point Bernhard
I dont think you should practice HS 30-50% more rapidly...
I dont think anyone would play chopin 10/4 at 264 HS
And I dont think richter practiced it at 315 ....
These speeds are absolutely insane.

I think you should only practice HS when it feels right... and most often that is in polyphonic or extra difficult bars...

Actually I agree with you and I have said as much in one of my posts (can't be bothered to look for it right now). There are certain ultrafast pieces that you will never be able to play HS 1.5 times faster. However the fact remains that you will always be able to play HS faster, so ultimately your speed HT will be limited by your speed HS, so the way to develop speed HT is actually to work on speed HS. Richter may not have pracised at 315, but I am sure he could play HS, say, at 290.

Finally, HS practice is important at the beginning. As one develops technique, HS practice becomes less and less important being reserved only for the few passages one cannot quite command. As I said several times before, there is no need to learn a whole piece HS before joining hands. Even if one is a beginner, the best way is to tackle a small section HS and immediately join hands. Then tackel the next section HS and immediately join hands. When you join both sections, there is no need to do ti with HS, join them with HT straightaway. This way, it is really at the very beginning of the piece that HS has its place.

The only exception to this is counterpoint (e.g. Bach fugues) where it is always a good idea to learn all the voices separately, but this has nothing to do with the acquisition of thechnique or speed, but rather to the knowledge of the individual melodic lines.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.