A Little Extra Help with TO Technic?

[veryangrystorks]

Yes, so I want to learn thumb-over technique for quick scales.  I have a few questions about actually LEARNING them, rather than "how useful is it?"

1.  I hear that I should play them as parallel sets.  How would I go about using the metronome for this?  Would I play the parallel sets as eighth notes at a given tempo?  How do I treat the parallel sets in relation to the whole scheme of things?
2.  When should I start to bring them from parallel sets down to "grace note speed?"
3.  Why is it wiser to go from infinitely fast to slower speeds with this technique?
4.  When will the gap during position shifts disappear?
5.  I read somewhere else that I should "not practice slowly, but in 'slow motion.'"  Can someone explain this a little more clearly?
6.  Bernhard said at one point "never use TU technique."  How would one execute slower, legato scales, then?  There does not seem to be a way to play TO legato.

I am asking these questions because I've been trying myself to do these TO scales, and I'm finding it impossible, even though it's supposed to be somewhat more simple than TU scales.  Yes, I know about what C.C. Chang or whomever has to say about this.  I need not be linked to his site.  :p  I'd like some advice from pianists here who use it.

[faulty_damper]

" Bernhard said at one point "never use TU technique."  How would one execute slower, legato scales, then?  There does not seem to be a way to play TO legato."


Erm, you don't use TO when playing slow passages, just for very fast passages.

TO is just moving your hand over to play the next set of notes.  THAT"S IT!  You move your hand OVER.

TU is the moving of the thumb UNDER your hand to play the next key, then the rest of your hand follows the next set of notes.

[veryangrystorks]

I know that's "all" it is, but I've heard there were certain ways of practicing it... for instance:  don't start slow and speed up, etc.  That's more what I'm asking about.

[bernhard]

Yes, so I want to learn thumb-over technique for quick scales.  I have a few questions about actually LEARNING them, rather than "how useful is it?"

1.  I hear that I should play them as parallel sets.  How would I go about using the metronome for this?  Would I play the parallel sets as eighth notes at a given tempo?  How do I treat the parallel sets in relation to the whole scheme of things?
2.  When should I start to bring them from parallel sets down to "grace note speed?"

i.      Regarding questions 1 and 2 of your post, it is not necessary to use a metronome (it is better not to, actually), and you should not get entangled in a somewhat unhelpful terminology, like “parallel sets”. Here is the short, simplified version of how to go about it using C major over two octaves as an example.

Start with the right hand. Play the first 3 notes (CDE – fingers 123) as a chord, that is, all three notes together. Now, without moving the thumb at all use the arm to move the whole hand to the next position: FGAB (1234). Play these four notes as a chord. Again move the hand and play CDE (123) one octave higher, and finally FGAB (1234). You can go through the whole keyboard up and down playing these clusters of 3 / 4 notes, alternating fingers 123  and 1234. It is not difficult to play these chords. The real difficulty is to accurately displace your hand from position to position. This is what needs to be practised. In fact a good way to work on it is to play the notes C-F-C-F-C-F etc. all over the keyboard with the thumb only. Then play D-G all over the keyboard with the second finger only. Next E-A with 3rd finger. Finally play all Bs in the keyboard using the 4th finger.

Now go back to playing chords (CDE – 123 & FGAB – 1234) you should experience some improvement in the hand displacement accuracy.

Now play the thumbs separately, that is: C (1) then DE (23) together as a chord. Then F (1) and GAB (234) together as a chord.

Next step: instead of playing CDE (123) as a chord, “roll” your hand (easy to demonstrate, difficult to describe verbally), so that you “break the chord” and CDE are played very fast. Displace the hand to the next position and play FGAB (1234) in the same fashion.

If you followed so far, you will agree that playing CDE (123) and FGAB(1234) very fast and accurately is not a problem. Displacing the hand to the next position is. It follows that the speed with which you will be able to play scales will be limited by the hand displacement movement. This is what you must practise and improve.

The final step is to decrease the speed with which you “roll” the chord notes (CDE and FGAB), and increase the speed with which you displace the hand (EF and BC), so that the scale sounds even.

Then do the same with the left hand: the pattern will be different (DEFG – 1234 and ABC – 123).

As with all matters of technique it pays to  experiment with several movements before you settle on the one that is the most appropriate for your physicality. In particular the angle of your fingers/hand to the keyboard will make a big difference on scale playing in different contests.

Have a look here where this very subject has been discussed at length by me and others: (thread no. 1 has a more detailed description of how to learn TO)

1.
https://www.pianoforum.net/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=perf;action=display;num=1072372668

2.
https://www.pianoforum.net/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=stud;action=display;num=1052872232

3.
https://www.pianoforum.net/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=stud;action=display;num=1067332140

ii.      

3.  Why is it wiser to go from infinitely fast to slower speeds with this technique?

Because you cannot run by walking faster and faster. The movements are completely different. There are things that simply cannot be learned by starting slowly and speeding up (water skiing and juggling come to mind). However once you learn how to run, you can practise the running movements in slow motion.

And it is not “wiser”. It is just “easier”.

iii.      

4.  When will the gap during position shifts disappear?

When your speed is such that you depress the next key and the hammer hits the next string before the damper of the previous one has gone back to its position and stopped it from vibrating.

iv.      

I read somewhere else that I should "not practice slowly, but in 'slow motion.'"  Can someone explain this a little more clearly?

See item [ii] above. Imagine a movie scene shot in “slow motion”. The movements are the movements people make when moving at speed. It is exactly the same movements, but at slow motion. Compare walking with running in slow motion. They are very different movements. If you tell someone running to “slow down”, they will change the movement patterns and start walking. But if you tell them to run in “slow motion” they will do the same movement patterns as in running, just slower. So one sould never practise slowly, because they will be practising pattern of movements that are completely different form the required ones. One should always practise the appropriate pattern of movements in “slow motion”.

v.      

Bernhard said at one point "never use TU technique."  How would one execute slower, legato scales, then?  There does not seem to be a way to play TO legato.

Er… I doubt very much I ever said that. If you look at thread no. 1 above, you will find that I actually said was:

“Thumb under is essential for slow passages that must be rendered legato. Thumb over is essential for fast passages, where the complications of bringing the thumb under the hand would result in jerky playing.”

On the other hand, it is perfectly possible to play legato with TO You will need a bit of contortionism, and the movement will be useless for fast scales, but it can be done. And you can always use the pedal.  

But just to be clear: in slow legato scales you must use thumb under. In fast scale runs, thumb over.


vi.      Of equal importance to thumb over/under when playing scales is the arm movement. Put your fingers on the keys and without pressing any key let your arm move the hand up and down the keyboard with the fingers lightly touching it (again easy to show difficult to describe). Notice how the arm has the ability to move the hand at amazing speeds, much faster than the fingers will actually be able to cope. So when playing fast scales, let the arm control the horizontal movement/speed while the fingers must co-ordinate with this horizontal movement and press the keys vertically. The feeling of playing fast scales is as if your hand was a big spider with five legs running all over the keyboard.


Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[faulty_damper]

I'm not Bernhard, so I can't remember the threads in which the TO technique is discussed.  But you're probably going to get a reply with a whole bunch of links to those threads.  So be prepared.

[bernhard]

I'm not Bernhard, so I can't remember the threads in which the TO technique is discussed.  But you're probably going to get a reply with a whole bunch of links to those threads.  So be prepared.

[ted]

An excellent comparison Bernhard, and one which, funnily enough,  I have long used as a mental model. We used to have a very large pet triantelope (the exact spiders used in Arachnophobia - hundreds of them were shipped to Hollywood for the film from where I live) in a fishbowl in the lounge and the agility of its movement was wonderful to observe.

[rlefebvr]

this is an interesting thread even if it has been discussed several times before. I finally figured out the TO thing, only to realize I was already doing it without realizing it. Only to realize I did not understand it because I was playing way to slow and legato to make it work and sound nice.

Bernard’s technique stated above of playing fast by breaking it down in chords and then rolling to finally slow it down works great. I did not try it with scales, but I used it to learn "les arpeggios" and it helped tremendously and quickly. It can also be used in a lot of pieces when you start off.

[veryangrystorks]

Er… I doubt very much I ever said that. If you look at thread no. 1 above, you will find that I actually said was:

“Thumb under is essential for slow passages that must be rendered legato. Thumb over is essential for fast passages, where the complications of bringing the thumb under the hand would result in jerky playing.”

Well, in the "is there a perfect technique 4 super fast scales?" thread, you said:  2. Do not play thumb under.  I guess I misinterpreted this.  Also, later in that post, you say "Don't practice mechanically."  Does this mean to add dynamics, phrasing, etc. to my scales?

[bernhard]

Well, in the "is there a perfect technique 4 super fast scales?" thread, you said:  2. Do not play thumb under.  I guess I misinterpreted this.  Also, later in that post, you say "Don't practice mechanically."  Does this mean to add dynamics, phrasing, etc. to my scales?

Er...

Look at the context. I was answering a specific question about fast scales. My answer was not: "never play TU", but "do not play TU on fast scales".

By mechanical practice I mean practise without awareness of what you are doing. You sit at the piano and while daydreaming about your last holidays on the Caribbean, you ripple scales for 2 hours. It is actually possible to do that and play quite musically! Perhaps a better way of saying it would be: Do not practise on automatic pilot.

Sometimes - for certain purposes - it is important to practise without dynamics (even without sound!), in other words, not musically. But one should never play mechanically/automatically.

Mind you, Charles Rosen disagrees with me, and says that once you get everything right, you should actually repeat as mindlessly as possible. He even suggests you read a book while practising!

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[cziffra]

bernard, you're a genius.  i love you.  

[arigatuso]

Bernhard:

I´m confused.

Recently, you wrote:

"Mind you, Charles Rosen disagrees with me, and says that once you get everything right, you should actually repeat as mindlessly as possible. He even suggests you read a book while practising! "

But, many times you said "practice until the passage can be done without thinking. "

Can you explain a little more?

Thanks,
Ale.

[bernhard]

Bernhard:

I´m confused.

Recently, you wrote:

"Mind you, Charles Rosen disagrees with me, and says that once you get everything right, you should actually repeat as mindlessly as possible. He even suggests you read a book while practising! "

But, many times you said "practice until the passage can be done without thinking. "

Can you explain a little more?

Thanks,
Ale.

Thinking while practising is not the same thing as practising with awareness, with mindfulness.

Thinking is an intellectual activity. It is basically an act of constant comparison. You cannot play the piano if you start thinking, because thinking is a very slow process. In fact most flops in performance happen because the pianist starts “thinking” about what s/he is doing.

The best way to learn to play the piano is by imitation. As you try to imitate your model, you must be very aware and very concentrated, but you cannot think at all. If you think you direct your attention inwards and you start loosing information. So I am really talking here about a very special state of consciousness where you are fully focused on the task at hand, you are observing yourself with total awareness, but you are not having any of the usual accompanying thoughts that consist of mostly comparisons between this and that movement. If you want to think while practising you will have to slow down your movements considerably. Thinking should really be limited to the initial stages of learning a piece when you are working on the score and doing analysis. In this context thinking is safe and very useful. But the moment you sit down at the piano you should not think anymore. But you should be full of attention and concentrate at the task at hand. It is a very special state of mind (time seems to stop) and without it practice is impossible: it becomes unbelievably boring. However, get into this state of mind and you will be able to practise for hours maintaining a high interest throughout.

So no thinking! Instead an intense awareness of the sensations and sounds of playing.

As for Rosen. There is no real contradiction once you understand that he is talking about a stage where you have got everything “right”. You are note experimenting anymore to find out what is the best movement, or the best fingering. In short, you have arrived at your final set of co-ordinates that you want for a specific piece. So now comes the task of ingraining this on the subconscious. So, according to him it does not really matter if you pay attention to it or not. You may as well read a book. I don’t like that, because if I am not paying attention things tend to deteriorate pretty quick. But this is just me. Other people may not need it. But if you do not pay attention during the previous stage, when things are not yet right you will be courting disaster big way.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.