how many hours i need to practise?

[paris]

hi i have one question for all teachers, proffesors and all who can answer-i'm 15 year old and i'm going to regulary school and music school. sometimes i don't have time to practise, sometimes just 1-3 hours, but this is not enough. i practise a lot on weekends, but i'm interested how to organize my practice when i have just 1 hour. now i'm preparing for competition EPTA and i have to learn about 10-12 pieces, and the problem is 'when to practise all that pieces?' of course, i want to be well (the best  ) prepared for that competiton.
how many hours is recomended to practise in my age?
thanx

[monk]

Recommended is: As many hours as possible! But only so much that you are still concentrated and your body is relaxed!

If you REALLY have only 1 hour time for practice on some days (have you? ? ?), then asking how much you should practice is a bit obsolete, isn't it? Then you can't practice longer, period.

But perhaps you can optimize your schedule so that more hours per day are possible. Talk to your parents and teachers.

Best Wishes,
Monk

[bernhard]

Both your age and the number of hours you practise are irrelevant.

It is not important how many hours you practice, but the results you achieve. Ideally you should aim to get results in as little time as possible. How do you do that? You have to know how to practice correctly, you must know which repertory you want to learn  and you must know how to plan efficiently.

You should practise for as much time as you need to get the result you are aiming at. On the other hand, it should not take that long. If it does, you are doing something wrong.

I have written a lot about this, so I suggest you have a look at these threads to start with. If you still have questions, come back.

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,3039.msg26525.html#msg26525
(how big are your hands, and does it matter?  7 x 20 minutes – exercise/activities to strengthen the playing apparatus – ways to deal with wide chords – the myth that Richter was self-taught – 3 stages of learning – Example: Chopin militaire Polonaise - scientific principles for testing practice methods – Example: Prelude in F#m from WTC1 – when to join hands and why HS – practice is improvement – the principle of “easy” – Example: Chopin’s ballade no. 4 – repeated groups)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,1867.msg14268.html#msg14268
(Getting technique from pieces – several important tricks: hand memory, dropping notes, repeated note-groups)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2255.msg19129.html#msg19129
(practising long pieces – Good discussion if one should or should not listen to CDs - Slow motion practice, comparison with walking/running)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2599.msg22431.html#msg22431
(How long does it all take? – self-taught students - the cake analogy - criticism of ABRSM for expecting people to reach grade 8 in 10 years - learning is not gradual  comparison with reading - different ways of learning - how to learn to drive a car -   the dispersive method of teaching - 15 list to “disperse” learning).

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2458.msg21365.html#msg21365
(Mental practice – tips for fingering)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2526.msg21829.html#msg21829
(how to organise piano practise in short/medium/long term – Principle of memory retention – Principle of 15 minute sessions – stopping when you achieve your goals. Teachers should teach how to learn)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2998.msg26268.html#msg26268
(Scales HT, why? – why and when to practise scales HS and HT – Pragmatical  x logical way of teaching – analogy with aikido – list of piano techniques – DVORAK – realistic x sports martial arts – technique and how to acquire it by solving technical problems – Hanon and why it should be avoided - Lemmings)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,3371.msg30141.html#msg30141
(zoom-zoom – all about speed playing – example: 3rd movt of Moonlight)

Just the tip of the iceberg.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[paris]

to Monk-what if i really don't have time for practising everyday? i said, i go to 2 schools- but i think that is now time to choose. my mother thinks that i should keep going in both schools, but i find it now impossibile. i love music, and everyone say i am very talented and musical, but i understand that without practise...all gets to hell. i was thinking about that problem all last year, and i finally decided that something i have to change. i have 3 grades to finish regulary school-is it worth? i mean,only thing i love is music.

[LiszTMaN]

AHHH YOU *** RETARDS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

dont ask how long you practice, practice until you feel like you get it down!

[Swan]

 And this is why he posted in the TEACHER'S FORUM and not the STUDENTS.   Asking how long you should practise is a fair question.  The answer just so happens to be 'it depends.'  

[Swan]

i have 3 grades to finish regulary school-is it worth? i mean,only thing i love is music.

If you mean is it worth staying at school for an extra three years, then the answer is YES!  Get a good education, not just a musical one.  And it's not impossible to practise EVERY day if you work out a written schedule you can stick to.  20 minutes of concentrated practise is far better than two hours of waffle.   And EVERY one should be able to find 20 minutes a day.  Get out of bed half an hour earlier.  Take shorter showers.  Multi task.  There is ALWAYS a way to do something if you really feel it is important and will be of benefit.

And have a schedule for that 20 minutes of practise.  Have specific goals you want to achieve in short terms, medium terms and long terms.  Have a plan and stick to it.

And the only retard around here are idiots who come into the teachers forum and swear their heads off and call people names.

[Medtner]

I have a question for Bernhard,

I seem to have lost the thread where I followed one of your links about PPI and how long it takes to learn a piece, but anyhow it all ties back together and has relevance here.

Recently I set up a practise schedule until the end of the year, what I'm to practise everyday for a given amount of time with the specific goal to increase my repertoire as much as possible. I used to have a lot of trouble with memorisation in the past but I think I have once and for all solved that problem. A little discipline works.

My practice session usually lasts for about 2 to 2.5 hours, each half hour devoted to a piece of music and depending on its complexity and length I have given anywhere from one to two weeks to master each piece (or movements therein). After having read your linked passage about practicing 7 times, getting your sleep, and still requiring 4 days to memorise or master a section, my question is really about overwhelming oneself or information overload. I'm kind of referring back to the poem you mentioned with 200 lines. I'm not sure I could have accomplished that.

Let's say I take every 5 minutes and master a line of music (or phrase). At the end of the 30 minutes, I've mastered about a page of music, which is approximately my goal. But then I go on and do this for 4 or 5 other pieces. Does it depend on the individual, or is it very possible to learn this much in a single day? If there really isn't a limit to what our brains can process over night, then is there any reason why, for sake of building repertoire, to not keep going, for example, practice 4-5 hours and learn up to 10 pages of music, each from a separate piece of music? Given that I follow the schedule and return and practice and relearn that music the next day. Is there a limit to what our brains can process, or will it simply be information overload?

Thanks in advance for your thoughtful insights.

Kolya

[bernhard]

I seem to have lost the thread where I followed one of your links about PPI and how long it takes to learn a piece, but anyhow it all ties back together and has relevance here.

Here is the thread to PPI:


https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,3625.msg32673.html#msg32673
(PPI –  comparison with body building – brief mention of movement and intellectual centre – comparison with babies walking and coma patients- muscle tension and nerve inhibition – how to investigate and test practice ideas – How to teach by using progressively difficult repertory)

My practice session usually lasts for about 2 to 2.5 hours, each half hour devoted to a piece of music and depending on its complexity and length I have given anywhere from one to two weeks to master each piece (or movements therein). After having read your linked passage about practicing 7 times, getting your sleep, and still requiring 4 days to memorise or master a section, my question is really about overwhelming oneself or information overload. I'm kind of referring back to the poem you mentioned with 200 lines. I'm not sure I could have accomplished that.

Let's say I take every 5 minutes and master a line of music (or phrase). At the end of the 30 minutes, I've mastered about a page of music, which is approximately my goal. But then I go on and do this for 4 or 5 other pieces. Does it depend on the individual, or is it very possible to learn this much in a single day? If there really isn't a limit to what our brains can process over night, then is there any reason why, for sake of building repertoire, to not keep going, for example, practice 4-5 hours and learn up to 10 pages of music, each from a separate piece of music? Given that I follow the schedule and return and practice and relearn that music the next day. Is there a limit to what our brains can process, or will it simply be information overload?

It seems to me that you do not want an answer, you want reassurance.

Feel reassured. If there is a limit to the human brain in terms of storing and processing information, or simply in terms of learning, it is not known. If such a limit exists, no one in history has even got closer to it.

As far as I know the real limits are death and some diseases (e.g. Alzheimer) . Personally I believe to have pretty much sorted out how to learn any piece of the piano repertory (although I am far from satisfied and I am always on the lookout for even more efficient methods). And it is at that stage – which should only take 2- 3 yeare to reach – that it hits you: You will never have the time to play all the pieces you want to play. There is just too much good stuff! It is depressing   but I try not to think too much about it.

This is the main reason why one should never play anything one does not want to. We should be acquiring all the repertory we can while we can.

Now for numbers.

7 repeats to learn a passage.

This number is (as always) a statistic. So there is some variation. I estimate its standard deviation at 2 (are you familiar with statistics)? This means that 68% of students will learn a passage within the interval 5 – 9 repeats, and 95% of students will learn a passage within the interval of 3 – 11 repeats. But you are not a statistic, so find out by experimenting how long it will take you personally. The number is of course dependent on the player and on the passage.

20 minutes working on a passage.

This is an even more dodgy figure than the one above (which I went to some pains to sample and research). Consider it as an upper limit. You should not practise a passage for more than 20 minutes on a single day. If you cannot master a passage in 20 minutes, something is wrong. Either the passage is too difficult/complex and you need to do preliminary technical work/simplify it, or the passage you chose to practise is too large and needs to be pared down. More common is the obsessive student, who after having practised a passage for 5 – 10 minutes and mastered it will go on to practise it for a further 4 hours. This is a waste of time. No benefit will accrue from practising a passage  that has already been mastered on the same day. By all means, practise it again the next day. If you haven’t yet, you will find out that mastery both easily slips away from one’s grasp over a night’s sleep and is acquired magically over one night’s sleep. So you must repeat it the next day. The point of the 20 minute rule is that instead of practising a single passage for 4 hours, it is far better to practise (= more efficient) 12 different passages for 20 minutes each. Now most students (although again it will depend on the student and on the passage) can master a passage in far less time than 20 minutes (usually 5 – 10 minutes is enough). If this is the case, then move on. You are not aiming at a particular amount of time practising. You are aiming at achieving results. Once the result is achieved don’t waste time in trying to get something you already have. (There is an important exception to the 20 minute rule: that's when you do repeated note-groups which usually takes 45 minutes to complete).

4 days.

This again has an SD of 2 days. So 68% of students fully master and memorise a passage in 2 – 6 days, and 95% in 0 (instant mastery in one practice session) – 8 days. Full mastery here is the equivalent of cycling. Once you fully master riding a bicycle, you will never forget it even if you spend 30 years without riding one. The first time maybe a bit dodgy, but soon you get the hang of it again. The same is true of piano playing, but since piano playing is more complex, it takes more time (and effort) to truly master a piece in this sense. Also it is very easy to fall into the delusion that you actually mastered a piece – just because you can play it – when you have not.

The test of mastery is simple. Learn the piece as thoroughly as you think you can. Then do not play it for 6 months (or one year). Then go back to it. Can you still do it? If you cannot, you have not truly mastered it (although you may have learned it to a very satisfactory degree). If you have not mastered it, relearn it from scratch. This is very important to stress because the temptation to cut corners will be irresistible. Resist it. Pretend it is a piece you have never seen before. Having relearned it to what you would imagine is mastery, leave it again for 6 months. Go back to it. Is it mastered this time? No? Repeat the process again. After 3 or 4 times you will have mastered it forever. This learning-forgetting process serves both as a test of your mastery and as a very powerful process by which to achieve such mastery. But there is a great resistance to this idea. However you can direct your long term goals (we are talking 5 years here) to accommodate the relearning of once learned pieces.

Finally, making a practice diary is essential.

As you can see, there is quite a lot of thinking, planning and concentrated effort to achieve superlative results. Yet we know that lots of people did it. Arrau had close to 1000 pieces in his repertory when he died (and we are talking concerts and Beethove sonatas level of repertory here). Richter had even more (I heard estimates of 1500). Then they died. However gifted they might have been in intelligence and memory to start with (and this always helps), the reason they managed to amass such large repertories (not at all an uncommon feat) is because they followed this sort of approach. (Fortunately both Arrau and Richter left extensive interviews – now in book form – talking about every aspect of their pianism).

No one is going to go through that with pieces they do not love to death. Sometimes one hears the  argument that if you only play what you want, you will be musically limited to a few pieces/styles. I call this the “eat your broccoli” school of repertory selection. There are two fallacies with this argument (apart from the fact that piano playing is not food): The first is that if you do not like Bach, you will not play it, no matter how good it may be for your piano diet. It is as simple as that. The second is that musical tastes change as you develop as pianist (by learning the pieces you love). All the 17 year olds are crazy about Liszt, Chopin and Rachmaninoff. In 20 years time they will be obsessed with Bach, Scarlatti and Schumann. (or vice-versa). So there is no reason to fret. If you only play what you want to play, very soon you will be amazed at what you want to play!

At the same time people are dismayed to hear that you need that sort of careful and systematic approach (“I just want to have fun” or “I just want to play, I don’t want to think about all this”). There is even a thread somewhere in the forum where people ask in all seriousness what is wrong with watching TV while you practise Hanon.

Need I say more?

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[paris]

hi i have one question (if bernhard can answer or somebody else   )
you said that i have to find at least 20 minutes , BUT-i have so much pieces to do, here are:

beethoven-pathetique
chopin- etude op.25 n.1
rachmaninoff-etude op.33 n.7
mozart-variations in F-major
brahms-3 intermezzi op.117
debussy-jardins sous la pluie
bach-preluidum and fuga in E-major
liszt-etude d'apres paganini in E-major

my question is-will i forget all what i did, because i can't practise all that pieces every day?
and how practise them to not forget them...
any suggestions?

and-when i perform bach, i have problems with memory,i forget some parts  

ana maria

[Medtner]

Thank you Bernhard, for your reply and brain analysis.

Unfortunately I can barely find 2 hours a day to play, so that's what I want in the least. If I had more, I would definitely take advantage of it!

If what you're saying is true, I could theoretically sit and play for 8 hours everyday, and if I work on 4 pages approx. every half-hour or so, I could have over 30 pages mastered within a week. But since I only have 2 hours, I can really only do about 8 pages.

Well, time for me to get my long-awaited sleep and time for subconscious learning!

Kolya

[Medtner]

Hmm, Bernhard, I'm back, out of curiosity. Just wondering what kind of a repertoire do you have (and approx. what age group are you)?

As I'm just starting my new practise routine (did 1 week so far and actually finished learning a new piece and a few pieces I had been stuck on... for an indefinite amout of time). I would like to know how long you've been doing this for and what kind of results you have found, and how much repertoire you've been able to build. Please share.

It's extremely late and I'll check back again tomorrow.

Kolya

[bernhard]

hi i have one question (if bernhard can answer or somebody else   )
you said that i have to find at least 20 minutes , BUT-i have so much pieces to do, here are:

beethoven-pathetique
chopin- etude op.25 n.1
rachmaninoff-etude op.33 n.7
mozart-variations in F-major
brahms-3 intermezzi op.117
debussy-jardins sous la pluie
bach-preluidum and fuga in E-major
liszt-etude d'apres paganini in E-major

my question is-will i forget all what i did, because i can't practise all that pieces every day?
and how practise them to not forget them...
any suggestions?

and-when i perform bach, i have problems with memory,i forget some parts  

ana maria

There are different stages on the process of mastering any piece, and each different stage will require a different approach. Here is one possible way to organise these perceptions:

Stage 1: You have never seen the piece before, and when you try to sight read through it you are dismayed at how impossible it all seems. Most of my posts are directed to people at this stage, experiencing this dismay. This is the stage where working in small passages, hands separate, doing practice sessions that last no more than 20 minutes, etc. are the appropriate approaches. If you follow all – or most – of these practice procedures, you should end up at stage 2.

Stage 2: A piece that once was impossible now it has become manageable, if not downright easy. At this stage concerns of technique are pretty much unimportant (technique has been mastered), and what looms large in one’s concerns are memorisation, having a plan B (what to do if you have a blank in the middle of the piece), fine tuning interpretation. While in stage one you were dealing with micro details, here you are giving the final touches on the overall picture. A lot of the groundwork for this stage should have already been done in stage 1 (especially memorisation), but now the concerns are obviously musical.

Stage 3 – Now your piece is technically impeccable – it is actually easy to play – it has been memorised, and musical decisions regarding interpretations have been taken and implemented. At this stage performance concerns are the priority. How is the piano you will be using? What adjustments in your interpretation must be done to take into account the piano responsiveness (or lack of?) Will you have time to rehearse and adjust, or is it going to be a surprise? What are the hall’s acoustics, and again what adjustments will you need to do in your playing? (And an empty theatre has a very different acoustics from a full one). What about stage fright and nervousness? It is more or less accepted that only after the third performance you will be really ready to perform. Again, the approach for this stage is radically different from the other two. And if you are going to play with an orchestra a whole new dimension opens here.

So with all this in mind, let us have a look at your questions.

What stage are you in with these pieces? A 20 minute session (which by the way I never suggested was the minimum one should practise, quite the opposite: 20 minutes was the maximum) is appropriate if you are struggling to master the technique of a bar or 2, but is certainly not appropriate if you are going to work on a Beethoven sonata which is in stage 2 (the Pathetique takes  about 15 – 18 minutes just to play through once).

my question is-will i forget all what i did, because i can't practise all that pieces every day?

It depends. If you are in stage 1, just learning a piece, you must do it every day or you will forget it. If you are in stage 2, then the piece is pretty much memorised, you can space it out that you should not forget it.

and how practise them to not forget them...
any suggestions? and-when i perform bach, i have problems with memory,i forget some parts  

Yes. Have a look here:

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,3056.msg26761.html#msg26761
(memorising the Allemande of French suite no. 1)

https://www.pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,7399.msg74758.html#msg74758
(the details of the process using “dozen a day” as an example)
 
If your piece is mastered, and you want to never forget it ever again, even if you stop playing it for 30 years, have a look here.

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,4168.msg38569.html#msg38569
(Keeping pieces polished – learn/forget/relearn)

I hope this helps.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[bernhard]

Thank you Bernhard, for your reply and brain analysis.

You are welcome.

Unfortunately I can barely find 2 hours a day to play, so that's what I want in the least. If I had more, I would definitely take advantage of it!

If what you're saying is true, I could theoretically sit and play for 8 hours everyday, and if I work on 4 pages approx. every half-hour or so, I could have over 30 pages mastered within a week. But since I only have 2 hours, I can really only do about 8 pages.

Well, time for me to get my long-awaited sleep and time for subconscious learning!

Kolya

Do not wonder “if what I am saying is true”. Check it out! If it’s true adopt and incorporate it into your practice routine. If it’s not discard it.

Now consider this: If one person working alone can build a house in 2 years, 730 people should be able to build a house in 1 day and 17520 people should be able to build a house in one hour. It does not work quite like that does it?

If you want to make comparisons, the best ones are with yourself. Get two pieces of similar difficulty. Learn one using a set of procedures, learn the other using a different set of procedures. See which piece you learned better, more efficiently and faster and you will know which set of procedures was best.

By your calculations you can do 8 pages a week with 2hours a day. But I think it depends. How difficult for you are these 8 pages? If they are truly difficult, may be you will not be able to do more than one page. On the other hand if they are easy maybe you can 100 pages. And how are these two hours being used?

In my experience progress in piano is never linear or gradual. You may struggle for months over a passage just to see the difficulty melt away in a couple of hours.

So do not believe me. Check it out! And if you find something that works better, come ant tell me (us).

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[paris]

thanks bernhard for your reply!  

you asked me on wich stage am i with these pieces.
i am on first stage, i did all memorisation, and now i'm going to improve tehnique.

that what you said about never forget a piece, even if 30 years not play, it is very interesting. because, last year i played chopin polonaise, i had played it for 1 year. after 1 year of work on it, i couldn't play it anymore!!! it annoyed me    
not for real (i still love that polonaise), but i couldn't play it , i had no inspiration, i think it was just a routine. how to make some piece interesting even if you have played it for 100 years and that piece not become routine?  
ana maria

[xvimbi]

how to make some piece interesting even if you have played it for 100 years and that piece not become routine?  

By re-interpreting it. Try different phrasing, tempi, accents, cadenzas, dynamics. After a few years, you may not like the way you played a piece anymore. You may end up saying "how could I have butchered this lovely piece so badly?". Playing a piece over many years should be like listenting to different people play. Keep an open mind and change your interpretation, and you won't fall into the "routine trap".

[aisling_7]

I would go to practicespot.com  

Read This:

https://www.practicespot.com/article.phtml?id=107&t=8

Read everything else on the site that you have time to read.  The hints are invaluable.

Jackie

[paris]

hey, my school started before a week, and suprisingly, my schedule is a little bit better. much better, i managed to find a solution. now i start practise in 8 in the morning. and sometimes i practise to 10 o'clock at night. i'm tired, because i slept only 6 hours!!! beethoven sonata is much much better, and rach and bach as well.  thanx to all, you helped me a lot.

thats all folks, i'm going to practise now  
adios

a.m.d.

[nick]

hi i have one question for all teachers, proffesors and all who can answer-i'm 15 year old and i'm going to regulary school and music school. sometimes i don't have time to practise, sometimes just 1-3 hours, but this is not enough. i practise a lot on weekends, but i'm interested how to organize my practice when i have just 1 hour. now i'm preparing for competition EPTA and i have to learn about 10-12 pieces, and the problem is 'when to practise all that pieces?' of course, i want to be well (the best  ) prepared for that competiton.
how many hours is recomended to practise in my age?
thanx

I don't think with 12 pieces to play well 1 hour will be enough. The amount of time needed to play well depends on a number of factors, experience, technical skill, number of pieces et. Only you can determine through experience how much time it will take you to play those pieces well.

Nick

[bernhard]

Also, have a look here:

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,4244.msg39203.html#msg39203
(How long to practice – having an aim, achieving it and moving on – How to define aim)

Best wishes,
Bernhard.